I have around 1200 hours, a commercial MEL, IFR and private Glider
certificates. I have not flown seriously since 1973. I had a brief period
in 1980 when I earned a glider rating and again in 1991/92 when I joined a
glider club and was a tow pilot. In 2002 I helped a local FBO on weekends by
running the airport and being the gas geezer when he took time off. In
exchange I got to fly his Taylorcraft. Alas I was replaced by a computerized
gas pump in 2003. This year I managed to find a slot flying skydivers. Now
they have gone belly up.

As you can deduce, I have very little money for flying but truly love it. I
am considering getting a ground instructors rating in hopes of teaching
enough classes to earn a CFI. I never got my CFI because I felt that I would
not be a good instructor as I did not feel comfortable in letting a primary
student go wrong far enough so he would see his error. Over the years I have
seen enough instructors to realize that very few do that so why don't I try
my hand. I enjoy teaching.

In recent years I have gotten the feeling that FAA attitude has changed. I
remember that that FAA seemed to have the approach "We don't care if you
kill yourself, we just don't want you to kill anyone else or injure their
property." Now it seems that they are becoming a small town speed trap. The
idea is violate you. It is, to me a horrifying environment when major
aviation publications have a legal column and the AOPA advertises as one of
its benefits the availability of a 'lawyer Insurance" plan. From my very
limited recent experience, I find the working troops ( Tower, approach
control, etc) are still there as one of the few government organizations who
actually want and do provide help in an interested and friendly professional
manner. This is as I always remember it and is one of the enjoyable facets
of aviation. The only time I was ever requested "to call the tower" was
when I was flying airtaxi and had flown through a restricted zone. This was
a normal practice in which we called the controlling authority and got
permission before entering the zone. I had done so and when I told the tower
that I had received permission. They said "Oh, the Navy forgot to tell us."
All was well and nothing was ever said about it. But I keep reading these
stories of FAA vendetta against pilots.

I do not want to fly in an adversarial environment. I fly because I love it.
It is a challenging, always changing, interesting and beautiful
environment. It is not perfect but close. In all life there is always some
drawback. After cooking and eating a good meal, you have wash dishes and
take out the garbage. But if the stories of FAA brutality are true, it is
more that just taking out the garbage.

Now my question, is it really that bad or are a few incidents blown out of
proportions?
I'd like to hear some opinions and stories from the group.

(I will not go into the TSA debacle as that is a government driven by panic.
In such situations there is always stupidity, ignorance and fear )

"john h" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>I have around 1200 hours, a commercial MEL, IFR and private Glider
> certificates. I have not flown seriously since 1973. I had a brief
> period
> in 1980 when I earned a glider rating and again in 1991/92 when I joined a
> glider club and was a tow pilot. In 2002 I helped a local FBO on weekends
> by
> running the airport and being the gas geezer when he took time off. In
> exchange I got to fly his Taylorcraft. Alas I was replaced by a
> computerized
> gas pump in 2003. This year I managed to find a slot flying skydivers. Now
> they have gone belly up.
>
> As you can deduce, I have very little money for flying but truly love it.
> I
> am considering getting a ground instructors rating in hopes of teaching
> enough classes to earn a CFI. I never got my CFI because I felt that I
> would
> not be a good instructor as I did not feel comfortable in letting a
> primary
> student go wrong far enough so he would see his error. Over the years I
> have
> seen enough instructors to realize that very few do that so why don't I
> try
> my hand. I enjoy teaching.
>
> In recent years I have gotten the feeling that FAA attitude has changed. I
> remember that that FAA seemed to have the approach "We don't care if you
> kill yourself, we just don't want you to kill anyone else or injure their
> property." Now it seems that they are becoming a small town speed trap.
> The
> idea is violate you. It is, to me a horrifying environment when major
> aviation publications have a legal column and the AOPA advertises as one
> of
> its benefits the availability of a 'lawyer Insurance" plan. From my very
> limited recent experience, I find the working troops ( Tower, approach
> control, etc) are still there as one of the few government organizations
> who
> actually want and do provide help in an interested and friendly
> professional
> manner. This is as I always remember it and is one of the enjoyable facets
> of aviation. The only time I was ever requested "to call the tower" was
> when I was flying airtaxi and had flown through a restricted zone. This
> was
> a normal practice in which we called the controlling authority and got
> permission before entering the zone. I had done so and when I told the
> tower
> that I had received permission. They said "Oh, the Navy forgot to tell
> us."
> All was well and nothing was ever said about it. But I keep reading these
> stories of FAA vendetta against pilots.
>
> I do not want to fly in an adversarial environment. I fly because I love
> it.
> It is a challenging, always changing, interesting and beautiful
> environment. It is not perfect but close. In all life there is always some
> drawback. After cooking and eating a good meal, you have wash dishes and
> take out the garbage. But if the stories of FAA brutality are true, it is
> more that just taking out the garbage.
>
> Now my question, is it really that bad or are a few incidents blown out of
> proportions?
> I'd like to hear some opinions and stories from the group.
>
> (I will not go into the TSA debacle as that is a government driven by
> panic.
> In such situations there is always stupidity, ignorance and fear )
>
>
>

I've been flying for almost 20 years now and I've never once had a bad
episode to write about. In fact, the older I get, the more I tend to
"blend" in with the normal aviation crowd and I'm enjoying it more than
ever. (It was tough to relate to the older folks when I was only 16)

>I've been flying for almost 20 years now and I've never once had a bad
>episode to write about.

I've been flying, civilian and military, since 1946, and have never
had a problem with the FAA. Never a complaint about a rude or
unhelpful controller.

vince norris

vincent p. norris wrote:
> I've been flying, civilian and military, since 1946, and have never
> had a problem with the FAA. Never a complaint about a rude or
> unhelpful controller.



There was a time back in the (I think) early 1980s when FAA morale was bad and
they would sometimes be less than friendly. They struck, Reagan fired the
strikers and suddenly all was well again in pilot/controller relations. It
seemed to me as if everyone went out of their way to be nice to each other after
the firings. Life was good for a time.

Then the FAA got punitive for things like altitude excursions....



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

The Washington ADIZ excepted, I think problems are overblown. I fly in
Chicago, which offers lots of traps for the unwary, and have made my
share of mistakes but although controllers don't hesitate to let me
know when I've done something stupid I do not consider the environment
punitive or adversarial. You do have to continue enough training and
sense to avoid doing anything Darwinian stupid, of course (e.g. landing
NORDO on RW09L at OHare).

"paul kgyy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The Washington ADIZ excepted, I think problems are overblown. I fly in
> Chicago, which offers lots of traps for the unwary, and have made my
> share of mistakes but although controllers don't hesitate to let me
> know when I've done something stupid I do not consider the environment
> punitive or adversarial.

That's been my experience too in my five years of flying in the Northeast.
I've made a couple of dumb mistakes (fortunately without significantly
compromising safety) that controllers could justifiably have reported to the
FAA, but they didn't; they just gave me a lecture over the radio, and they
were polite and professional about it. (I submitted ASRS forms.)

--Gary

>There was a time back in the (I think) early 1980s when FAA morale was bad and
>they would sometimes be less than friendly. They struck, Reagan fired the
>strikers and suddenly all was well again in pilot/controller relations. It
>seemed to me as if everyone went out of their way to be nice to each other after
>the firings. Life was good for a time.

Yes, I was flying IFR at the time and had no problems at all. I do
recall that there was rule saying NO pop-ups, and one day I heard some
dummy asking for a pop-up clearance to get down through an undercast
and being denied.

I guess he's still up there.

vince norris

"vincent p. norris" > wrote:

> Yes, I was flying IFR at the time and had no problems at all. I do
> recall that there was rule saying NO pop-ups, and one day I heard some
> dummy asking for a pop-up clearance to get down through an undercast
> and being denied.
>
> I guess he's still up there.

Oh, come on! It must have been VFR once since that day! :)

--
Peter

> It is, to me a horrifying environment when major
> aviation publications have a legal column and the AOPA advertises as one of
> its benefits the availability of a 'lawyer Insurance" plan.

AOPA is a business, and they're all about selling their services. The
reality is that most people simply don't need it.

I would be the last person in the world to defend FAA inspectors (check
out this letter by the inspector general about the way they operate:
http://www.avweb.com/pdf/brinell_report.pdf) but the fact is that you
hardly ever need to deal with them unless you want something from the
FAA. Ramp checks are a rarity (I haven't had one in 2200+ hours of
flying), and most checkrides these days are done with examiners. Even
if you want to get an initial CFI, there are schools you can go to with
examining authority. Controllers and FSS types are not inspectors, and
while I've encountered a few assholes, most have been OK.

When you do want something from the FAA, even something you're clearly
entitled to, they can be real assholes. When I went to the FSDO with
the letter from the A&P/IA who had suervised me for the requisite 4800
hours to get authorization to take my A&P, the maintenance inspector
strongly implied that I was my IA and I were both lying, was abusive to
me, but finally did issue the authorization. I know plenty of people
who have gone to the FSDO to take initial CFI rides only to have the
plane grounded for trivial issues (illegible TSO tags on 30-year-old
seatbelts, for example) and written up for flying an unairworthy
aircraft instead of getting their checkrides. But the real solution
here is to deal with them as little as possible.

Once I even knew an FAA ops inspector who was a good guy and a great
pilot. Of course he quit in disgust after a couple of years, but
hey...

Seriously, don't let the FAA dissuade you from flying. That would be
letting the *******s win.

Michael

> Now my question, is it really that bad or are a few incidents blown out of
> proportions?
> I'd like to hear some opinions and stories from the group.
>

I don't have a ton of experience, but in the five years I've been flying I
have never had a bad experience with the FAA, ATC or any government body
associated with aviation. I accidentally flew up too high once and scraped
my head on the Class Bravo in NYC while flying the VFR corridor. When I
contacted ATC for FF I was given an 800 number to call upon landing. I did
and the supervisor just wanted to know what happened. I explained that I
miss read my position on the TAC and thought I could climb into the outer
ring, when I was unwittingly in an inner ring. Stupid mistake. I never
heard another word about it and you can bet I never did that again.

Kobra

>> Yes, I was flying IFR at the time and had no problems at all. I do
>> recall that there was rule saying NO pop-ups, and one day I heard some
>> dummy asking for a pop-up clearance to get down through an undercast
>> and being denied.
>>
>> I guess he's still up there.
>
>Oh, come on! It must have been VFR once since that day! :)

Good one, Peter!

vince norris

Y'All,
It' not just the FAA. It's the FBO, insurance companies, insurance agents
and most of all the lawyers. At 81 I am having to deal with all of these
even though I have never had a negative mark on my flying record in over
11,000 hours and over 10,000 instructional hours.

I have always carried my own liability and non-owned aircraft insurance at a
cost of about $3,000 per year with never a claim.
Only one time have I used AOPA legal services and after 14 months the FAA
dropped the case. The wanted $500 and I fought them to a standstill.

However, a clean record is not enough for an insurance company that lives in
fear of legal firms that prey on aviation. The tale recently given to me
was that if any one of the other instructors of my FBO were to cause an
insurance claim, one of the attacks by a lawyer might be against my FBO that
they were negligent in letting an 81-year old instructor teach using their
aircraft. I'm presently on a
short leash even though I'm the only instructor carrying my own
insurance as well.

I have in the past week passed my renewal of my CFI and flight review. Need
an IFR proficciency ride since my plane has been down a long time. Also need
a club 6-month check in complex-high performance aircraft (182RG)

More things happen more often as you get older.

Gene Whitt

Gene Whitt wrote:
> Y'All,
> It' not just the FAA. It's the FBO, insurance companies, insurance agents
> and most of all the lawyers. At 81 I am having to deal with all of these
> even though I have never had a negative mark on my flying record in over
> 11,000 hours and over 10,000 instructional hours.
>
> I have always carried my own liability and non-owned aircraft insurance at a
> cost of about $3,000 per year with never a claim.
> Only one time have I used AOPA legal services and after 14 months the FAA
> dropped the case. The wanted $500 and I fought them to a standstill.
>
> However, a clean record is not enough for an insurance company that lives in
> fear of legal firms that prey on aviation. The tale recently given to me
> was that if any one of the other instructors of my FBO were to cause an
> insurance claim, one of the attacks by a lawyer might be against my FBO that
> they were negligent in letting an 81-year old instructor teach using their
> aircraft. I'm presently on a
> short leash even though I'm the only instructor carrying my own
> insurance as well.
>
> I have in the past week passed my renewal of my CFI and flight review. Need
> an IFR proficciency ride since my plane has been down a long time. Also need
> a club 6-month check in complex-high performance aircraft (182RG)
>
> More things happen more often as you get older.
>
> Gene Whitt

Gettin old is better than the alternative but ' I feel your pain'. At
70 ( last year) AIG cut my 1 M smooth policy to 1 M with 100k per. I
was able to get 1 M and $250 per with Avemco but I can see that as you
age, you become a poorer risk without considering any other elements.

Chuck

> At
> 70 ( last year) AIG cut my 1 M smooth policy to 1 M with 100k per.

Is this a non-owned policy? I know of nowhere to get a 1M smooth
non-owned policy.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Mostly bad news makes it on the evening news. Mostly bad news makes it
on newsgroups. In 29 years I haven't gotten any attention from the FAA
that I did not deserve.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

Jose wrote:
> > At
> > 70 ( last year) AIG cut my 1 M smooth policy to 1 M with 100k per.
>
> Is this a non-owned policy? I know of nowhere to get a 1M smooth
> non-owned policy.
>
> Jose
> --
> You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I've owned my Archer for about 9 years amd have had a smooth $1 M
untill this last year.

Chuck